In a revealing conversation on “A Quick Razz” podcast with host Adam Jones, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu star Craig Jones offered candid insights into his complex relationship with Gordon Ryan, widely regarded as the greatest no-gi grappler of all time. The Australian submission specialist, known for his irreverent humor and sharp analytical mind, dissected Ryan’s competitive brilliance while offering pointed criticism of his controversial public persona, creating a nuanced portrait of jiu-jitsu’s most dominant figure.
Acknowledging Dominance
Throughout the interview, Jones was unequivocal in recognizing Ryan’s competitive greatness, separating the athlete from the personality.
“Gordon is unquestionably the best grappler in the world,” Jones acknowledged without hesitation. “His style is perfection. I would say it’s perfection. It’s low risk, most people can replicate it, which is why he’s the bestselling instructor.”
“From a spectator point of view… for outside viewers, to be like Gordon and be unbeaten, to not have a blip in his record, to not have a f***-up is really very rare in combat sports, which is what draws viewers in to him.”
“We make most of our money off instructionals, so a style as perfect as Gordon’s, a record as perfect as Gordon’s, translates to sales because there’s the proof in the pudding that what he’s teaching works.”
The Gordon Ryan Paradox
Despite his admiration for Ryan’s competitive achievements, Jones offered a striking assessment of Ryan’s controversial public persona, suggesting it may actually hinder rather than help his popularity.
“I think he has his following in spite of his persona, not because of it,” Jones stated bluntly. “I think just his five, six year run, that alone is what draws in the viewers. Not necessarily his personality.”
“He is the best grappler ever. But like if that’s if that’s the life it gives you, like brother, have you tried having a friend?”
“I still don’t think he’s great. I’m still sick of his Fox News political memes, but I’d be for sure willing to look past that.”
Contrasting Approaches to Building a Following
Jones provided an intriguing analysis of different paths to building a following in combat sports, contrasting Ryan’s pursuit of perfection with competitors who prioritize excitement over unblemished records.
“If you’re a regular guy that’s going to win some, lose some, the way you create a cult following is by competing like a Gary Tonon… like a J-Rod, like an Andrew Tackett,” Jones explained. “You’re going to have wins and losses, but those matches are going to be so exciting and memorable.”
“From a historical perspective, I think Gary Tonon is one of the most exciting—probably the most exciting grappler we’ve ever had.”
“I’d rather have an organization full of Andrew Tackett/Kade Ruotolo style matches than this unstoppable champ like Gordon because… if Gordon does lose, that magic vanishes, whereas if you have an organization built on guys that are exciting to watch win or lose—like a Charles Oliveira style—the organization itself is always guaranteed to deliver entertainment.”
The Business of Building a Career in Combat Sports
A significant portion of the interview focused on Jones’ analysis of creating sustainable careers in combat sports, with implicit contrasts to Ryan’s approach.
“Most of the time I only work with products or something if I can see some good fun to be had with it,” Jones revealed. “I think part of the longevity of my career and making a career off of not winning – because I never have – is that we can provide value through social media and videos and stuff and push the sport forward that way.”
Jones credited fellow grappler Kit Dale as an influence in this marketing-first approach, emphasizing that in the modern combat sports landscape, being an excellent competitor isn’t enough.
“Doesn’t matter how good a grappler you are, if you’re not playing the game, those fight offers aren’t going to come in,” he stated bluntly. “If you’re undefeated and have 300 Instagram followers, like no person’s going to invest in you, even from a sponsorship point of view, because it’s like, why? What’s the point? Your accomplishments in jiu-jitsu don’t matter as much as you think they do.”
“We didn’t want to rely on Fight Pass or FloGrappling or anything to use their digital media guys to create hype for our team because we felt that we’re now just giving them all the control over who’s famous and who’s not famous in the sport of grappling.”
“It’s way easier for a B Team guy to get a super fight on a show because we can say ‘hey, you’ve got 400,000 subscribers, we’re going to heavily feature this guy in a YouTube video, give him an opportunity, you’re going to get attention from our YouTube.'”
The Power of Narrative in Combat Sports
Jones emphasized repeatedly that storytelling is often more valuable than perfect records in building an engaged audience.
“Everything’s about story,” he explained. “The story is what makes you care.”
He referenced judo Olympic medalist Jimmy Pedro‘s philosophy:
“All you need to do is create a story. You turn on TV and you watch MMA fight. You don’t know either of the guys. MMA’s intrinsically exciting but if you don’t care… but if you know the story, it’s why the Olympics are so special.”
“When we use real teams for the team event, they have a history, they have a legacy. We can build a narrative around those teams.”
Potential for Reconciliation
Despite their well-publicized feud, Jones expressed openness to eventual reconciliation with Ryan, particularly following his recent mending of fences with Ryan’s coach, John Danaher.
“Do I think me and Gordon could ever hit that point? I think it’s possible for sure. I think I care much less,” Jones admitted. “It’d be up to him, though, because I’ve said much more heinous things about him than he said about me.”
“Do I think he’s going to come to CJI and watch and support his team? Hell yeah. Do I think he’s going to enjoy the show? Yeah. Do I care that there’s a chance that New Wave will win and he will on our event, me as a human being? Uh, do I care? No.”
“If it’s for the greater good of the sport, hell yeah.”
A Vision for Jiu-Jitsu’s Future
The interview reveals Jones’ evolving vision for jiu-jitsu as a spectator sport that balances technical excellence with entertainment value. While acknowledging Ryan’s unparalleled dominance, Jones suggests that the sport’s growth may ultimately rely more on creating compelling narratives and entertaining matches than on crowning undefeated champions.
“The first one was about disrupting the industry which we did so effectively. For the next one, we’re more about bringing everyone together. We want to work with all the organizations. We want to work with all the athletes. We want to mend bridges.”
This collaborative approach represents a maturation of Jones’ perspective, suggesting that the sport’s evolution might require putting aside personal differences—even with rivals like Gordon Ryan—for the greater good of jiu-jitsu.
