During JRE MMA Show #166, UFC featherweight champion Ilia Topuria and black belt Joe Rogan explored this martial art’s technical complexity, psychological dimensions, and evolutionary impact on MMA.
From Judo to Jiu-Jitsu
Topuria‘s martial arts journey began conventionally enough—with judo at age four, followed by Garmon wrestling in his native Georgia. But it was his chance discovery of Brazilian jiu-jitsu in Spain at age 15 that would ultimately shape his championship path.
“Totally by chance,” Topuria explained how his family found a gym after his mother spotted a man with cauliflower ears and inquired about wrestling opportunities for her sons. “I didn’t know anything about mixed martial arts, I didn’t know anything about BJJ, the ground game, any f*cking thing,” Topuria admitted. His father showed him videos of the Gracies, insisting this was “one of the best sports in the world,” and Topuria recalls, “At that day we went to the gym and I fell in love since the first second.”
Rogan emphasized the value of this grappling foundation:
“It’s really great because you already have an established grappling base.”
This combination of judo, wrestling, and jiu-jitsu created the perfect platform for Topuria‘s eventual striking development when he began boxing at 17.
The Compartmentalized Approach
Unlike many fighters who primarily train MMA as a unified discipline, Topuria revealed his distinctive approach to skill development.
“I try to develop my skills in every discipline… I don’t train MMA at all. I do boxing classes, wrestling classes. I try to learn every discipline separate.”
When Rogan asked why, Topuria explained his strategic thinking:
“Because when the training camp comes, I try to mix it up and polish everything that I have been able to learn till that moment.”
This compartmentalized method allows him to develop deep understanding of each martial art before synthesizing them into a cohesive fighting system.
Jiu-Jitsu
The conversation shifted to perhaps the most valuable aspect of Brazilian jiu-jitsu—its capacity to develop practitioners beyond physical techniques. Rogan highlighted the psychological growth that jiu-jitsu fosters, quoting his martial arts instructor:
“Martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential. Through that struggle, through that difficult thing, you will learn how to be better at everything.”
Topuria agreed,
“100%,”
adding that
“most of time they didn’t understand what’s behind a fighting game. It’s not like only violence. You have to prepare yourself, you have to be smart, you have to work smarter than the other guy.”
The Complexity of Ground Fighting
The technical intricacies of high-level jiu-jitsu became evident when Rogan and Topuria analyzed footage of Demian Maia‘s legendary back control against Kamaru Usman. Rogan, drawing on his black belt expertise, provided detailed commentary:
“As soon as he clinches up and he ties that leg, as soon as he gets his hands together, Kamaru is in deep s*it right here.”
Topuria observed Maia’s subtle brilliance:
“He’s doing something very interesting there with the butterfly… He’s constantly keeping you off base.”
This analysis showcased the chess-like complexity of elite grappling exchanges, where minor adjustments create major advantages.
Rogan emphasized how Maia exemplifies jiu-jitsu specialization:
“When Damien Mia would get you, he’d clinch you — oh, you’re f**ked.”
This illustrated how deep expertise in one facet of martial arts can create overwhelming advantages against even elite opponents who lack the same specialized knowledge.
The Infinite Learning Landscape
Perhaps most fascinating was their mutual acknowledgment of jiu-jitsu’s boundless depth. Topuria noted:
“In BJJ, you never end up learning. All the time you learn new things, you see new things, you want to try it.”
Rogan expanded on this concept:
“Something like Brazilian jiu-jitsu, it’s a never-ending journey. Like there’s so many techniques, it’s un—there’s so many different combinations of things that you could do to a human body when you’re grappling.”
This unlimited technical landscape forces practitioners to make strategic choices, as Topuria explained:
“You have to decide what kind of style do you want to have. Do you want to fight from the guard? You want to pass the guard? Like there are different styles.”
Unlike striking arts that naturally limit options based on human anatomy (there are only so many ways to punch or kick), grappling creates exponentially more possibilities through the relationship between two bodies. This endless frontier of technical discovery keeps practitioners engaged for decades, constantly discovering new dimensions of the art.
Ego Management
Perhaps most profound was their discussion of how jiu-jitsu teaches ego management—a lesson both men identified as crucial for championship development. Topuria described his evolution:
“Before I used to go like more crazy than now… I had more ego. I wanted to prove myself like I can knock you out, I can submit you… But once you’re winning fights, you’re growing as a person, you’re like ‘I don’t need to prove anything here in the gym.'”
Rogan connected this to learning philosophy in jiu-jitsu:
“Marcelo Garcia always used to say that about jiu-jitsu, that you have to open up your game in the gym and don’t be afraid about being tapped. He goes, ‘You got to be open, you got to take chances in the gym and learn and put yourself in bad positions on purpose, and you might lose training sessions, but that’s not what’s important. What’s important is growing.'”
Topuria affirmed:
“If you tap out, no problem. You get better.”
This willingness to embrace vulnerability in training distinguishes champions from those who merely become good fighters.
The regular “ego death” experienced in jiu-jitsu training—where even experienced practitioners must constantly submit to superior technique—creates a rare humility and learning mindset not found in many other competitive endeavors.
The Future
Looking toward the future of MMA, both men agreed that comprehensive jiu-jitsu skills will be essential for tomorrow’s champions.
“I think in the future, guys like you will be everywhere,”
“There will be only guys like you at world championship level. I don’t think there’ll be any specialists anymore. I think there’ll be guys who are elite everywhere.”
Topuria concurred:
“If you want to be the best, you have to be the best everywhere the fight takes place — in the ground, and the wrestling, and the striking. You have to be good everywhere because that’s how the sport is developing right now.”
The Transformative Power of the Gentle Art
Through their deep exploration, Rogan and Topuria demonstrated that understanding Brazilian jiu-jitsu goes far beyond appreciating technique—it requires recognizing the art’s transformative impact on practitioners. The discipline simultaneously develops physical capabilities, strategic thinking, and psychological fortitude.
Champions like Topuria embody the integration of technical mastery with psychological growth that the art promotes.
In Topuria‘s words, jiu-jitsu is
“more than that”
—more than techniques, more than a sport, more than even a martial art. It’s a vehicle for human development disguised as combat training, a never-ending journey that shapes champions inside and outside the cage.
